tonight make sure you go to gret with a wire.com. open thread, there is so much going on on "on the record" on gretawire so go there. good night from washington. guillory, guill . book beckel, eric bolling, it is 5:00 in new york city, i'm jet lagged. so by now, you have heard of the murder of this young man from australia, christopher lane, the media has a reason, boredom, the suspected shooter enjoyed gang signs and colors and bragged about knocking out white people since the george zimmerman verdict. if you are not familiar with

this knocking out trend, it is where a gang cold-cocks a person, killing them. given the tweets and the gang stuff will the justice department see this as a hate crime? i don't think so, it won't fit a story likely "law and order." they're planning a trayvon martin episode, calling it an american tragedy. but the other american tragedy are the producers and networks and hacks who accept this. they just don't think it is fair to demand from a community what it demands from their own. even if the crime is not about race, it is an evil act, rooted in destruction in the communi communities. a black teen is invisible, until he is a body. and a dead person from australia is just the price you pay to be politically correct. hey, katey, how are you? >> good, how are you?

>> do you buy this boredom? do you think they were just bored? >> you know, i think it is correct they didn't have productive things to do. i think the key here is, no one really wants to talk about is, the guys came from broken homes. the guy accused of pulling the trigger posted pictures of himself wielding firearms on his account, on social media. his mother is in jail, she is not around. that means he is not spending time with his mother. the district attorney said that these kids were running around the apartment complex, basically raising themselves. and there was a gang initiation issue here, saying they were involved in that. there were more kids on the list to be taken out that day. and it really comes down to them not having the guidance they need and having more productive things to do. >> that is a good point, one

man, his son was james johnson, who was on the hit list. he is the guy is guess raised the idea it was a gang initiation thing, let's roll that. >> i think it was an initiation. >> gang initiation. >> as i understand, after that happened, there was a list that pops up with my son on the top of the list and four others they were going to bump off. >> so you think that the killing, even though they didn't know who chris lane was, could have been an initiation. >> they point out the media routinely like in the george zimmerman case will bring up race, but avoid describing like the race characteristics in chris lane's killing. is that a fair point? >> yeah, i think that is a fair point. let's go back to the point of whether or not it was a hate crime, seems like this guy said, he typed out that he hated white

people. i do think it is a gang, it has an awful lot of similarities to the gang initiation rites in los angeles, i think the justice department, if they were investigating a hate crime, even though it won't bring a death penalty, which i'm against anything. seems like you could bring this to a bigger issue than just simply being bored. >> who cares? it is a hate crime. he tweeted, hash tag, hate them, 90% of white people are mean, hate them. he literally said this is a hate crime, who cares if convicted they're going to get life behind bars? they can't get the death penalty because they're under 18. my issue is that the media is not calling this what this is. these are two black kids, the shooter is black, he killed a white guy, he said he hates white people, i hate them, hash tag, hate them. this is a black on white

violence that the media doesn't like. they want to hear white on black crime, they don't want to talk about black on white crime or black on black crime. the only thing that fits the rundown on msnbc seems to be white on black crime. >> it almost feels like since the trayvon martin stuff, a game of like race poker, where i see your white on black crime and i raise you with our black on white crime. is it just better to look at the decline of the family and a destructive culture or the color of skin? >> that is why i have always been against hate crime legislation, because crime is crime, and then when you try to define it, is it a race crime or crime against gays? one of the things that bothers me, i do think if it is gang violence, if that is a continuing problem in urban areas, or this is not even an urban area. it is 80 miles from oklahoma

city. boredom, i'm not buying it. however, there is not a lot of employment, you do have the broken home problem. there is not a lot of direction. and i think we could take a lesson from our military, bob may not like this. i just had that idea. remember when general petraeus designed the surge in iraq. and the point was, you had to go in and stop the violence and then you could start to deal with the root causes. and you had to get more police in the community. i think maybe that is what we need all across america. and if -- localities and municipalities want to participate, then the federal government could probably help them. we have a lot of vets that came back, use the skills they learned, the leadership skills they learned overseas, to deal with the problem. at least stop it. >> that is almost how they reduced a lot of killing in chicago, which is a higher presence of police. >> and you know, why were they bored? they were bored because they

didn't have jobs, they were not working, they're sitting around, how can we keep ourselves busy? let's kill somebody, there is one, let's shoot him. then we had the discussion on stop and frisk. one point i made was that the crime was very much tied to poverty and jobs, more so than necessarily stop-and-frisk. however, it is not a stop-and-frisk discussion. if we bring more jobs, if more kids are able to hold a job down, maybe they won't be bored and do something as stupid as this. >> but you know what? there are a lot of people who don't have jobs and are not killing people. if you look at the parallel, crime is going down, while unemployment is stagnant. >> i was going to say on that point, there is talk in australia of boycotting the united states, saying it is a dangerous place to be. i really don't think that is

fair. i understand that is an international incident. it is an extremely unfortunate incident. but as greg points out, crime has been cut since 1992. it is important to see it is a gang problem. we see shootings like that happening in gangs, all over the country, mostly in bigger cities. but we do see these things happening in smaller communitying communityingcommunityi-- communities. why are gangs not the crips and the bloods not seen as hate groups? because they essentially hate each other, crips don't like bloods, and bloods don't like crips? >> well, more likely they're engaged in warfare over drugs, dana doesn't like the hate crime

legislation, i'm not particularly favorable to it either. but in some cases, you don't have anything to fall back on. where in some cases, a person gets killed because they're gay, and then the feds can come in and say it is a hate crime. that is a situation where i think it is fine. we talked about this yesterday, a lot of countries in the world think we're crazy for what we do about guns here. and it is something that is a major conversation piece in other countries because we do allow guns freely to move around in this country. and we have guns moving around, you get people who are hateful people like this get their hands on it. >> we don't let guns roam around freely. >> yes, we do. >> no, you are required to get a background check. the only ones running around are those purchased illegally. one more thing to point out, in this exact case, a .22 caliber pistol was used. it is illegal to own a pistol

until you were 21 years old in this country. they broke the law there, guarantee they broke the law to get it. the person that got it for them broke the law, this has nothing to do with guns at all. >> somebody legally bought that gun. >> you don't know that. >> you're saying they ban firearm s completely? >> i'm saying -- >> if somebody illegally buys a gun, eventually it will make its way to a criminal -- >> there are two questions i would like to ask, before saying that the handgun -- >> so what is your point? >> my point is there is a huge incident with these shows, you can buy in virginia and south carolina, seven guns without background checks. a lot of incidents come from that. >> did they come from the last sentencing laws, when you were caught with an illegal gun you don't spend that much time in jail. if there was real punishment there would be less gun crime because they would be enforcing national laws. >> i'll say it again, we said it yesterday. it doesn't matter what the gun

laws anywhere, those kids were not allowed to have the gun that killed this man. >> and they got it from places -- >> doesn't matter where they get it from, bob, you could have hit them with a sledgehammer. >> i had a firearm at the age of 11 to go hunting with my father and never used it in the way these children used it. i had not a broken home, i was raised properly, i was taught how you use it respectfully. it is not fair to say just because you're a law abiding gun owner, somehow they end up in the wrong hands. >> i didn't suggest it. >> i was going to say outside of the gallun argument, another ast has been the social media component. and how one, these kids in some ways are the evidence against themselves. because they were tweeting and bragging about it. but also, if you have a rural community outside of oklahoma

city, it is easier to find out what is going on with the crips and the bloods and whatever, because one of the kids tweeted this could help his rap career. as they're trying to grow up in a transitioning america, they are actually -- social media can become your own worst enemy. >> can i make one quick point and we got to go, greg? can you imagine if it was reversed. two white guys kill a black kid, and they find this social stuff, black people are angry, hash tag hate them? the left would be all over it. it would be the next trayvon martin media -- >> they're all over this, aren't they? >> i think the point eric is making, race would become a point immediately in the reverse, people are very shy talking about race suspects. for instance, last week, two gay men were attacked in chelsea by a group of thugs, shouting

anti-gay slurs. christine quinn, the candidate says you have to find these guys. no description of what they looked like, immediately in your head, you're going why aren't they publishing descriptions? because they don't want to. it is political incorrect to do that. they are paralyzed. we can't say because somebody is afraid of looking like a bigot, i think that is where we're at, right? >> are you asking me that? >> i will now. >> i think it is absolutely ridiculous that you can't describe who a perpetrator is. >> all right, ahead on the five, how one woman was able to help stop a gunman. all coming up.

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welcome back, everybody. it was tuesday in a suburb near atlanta, georgia, when a 20-year-old boy with a history of mental illness walked into an elementary school holding an ak-47, his pockets loaded with 500 rounds of ammunition.

michael brandon hill was ready to shoot. here is how it unfolded. >> yes, ma'am, i'm in a school, and the gentleman said hold the police officers, because he is going to start shooting. so tell them to back off. >> and where are you? >> i'm inside, oh, he just went outside and started shooting. where can i run? >> can you get somewhere safe? >> yeah, i got to go. yeah, he is going to see me, call me back -- oh, hold on. >> put the phone down. >> as i said, hill was ready to kill until he met antoinette tuff. god was looking down on that school that day, because ms. tuff was exactly the right person to cross paths with michael brandon hill. >> he said he don't care if he dies, he don't have nothing to live for. he says he is not mentally stable. i can help you, you want me to

talk to them and try to -- okay, well, let me talk to them and let's see if you can work it out so that you don't have to go away for a long time. no, it does matter. i can let them know that you are not trying to harm me or doing anything with me. but that doesn't make any difference, you didn't hit anybody. well, don't feel bad, baby, my husband just left me after 33 years. but -- yes, you do. i mean, i'm sitting here with you and talking to you about it. i got a son that is multiple disabled. ma'am? >> yes, ma'am. >> okay, he is going to come on out. but he wants to know what you want him to do with the gun. >> okay. >> or you want to send a police officer in -- he said he will be on the ground with his hands behind his back, and i'll take the gun from him and put it over on the other side by me.

>> now listen to the compassion that antoinette tuff showed in the confrontation with the police officer. >> it is going to be okay, i want you to know i love you, and i'm proud of you. that is a good thing that you're just giving up. and don't worry about it. we all go through something in life. you don't want that. you going to be okay. >> here is the most compelling part. hear the raw emotion from antoinette tuff as the police secure the scene. >> hello? yes. i'm going to tell you something, babe, i never been so scared in my life. >> you did great, you did great! >> oh, jesus! oh, god. >> so bob, pretty impressive stuff, huh? what a hero. >> remarkable. remarkable. i mean, i -- it was sort of funny to hear the line about her husband had left her after 33 years. but i think she was in a

compassionate place, and understood what it looked like to be alone. he obviously related to her. i can't imagine being in that situation. and not only did she talk to him about giving up his gun, but left him with the feeling of being a human being. i'm sure that when the cops came in they didn't exactly show that kind of compassion. but for that kid, i don't excuse what he did, but if he does have a mental illness and didn't shoot anybody, i think he can thank that woman down the road if he gets well. >> i think the cops don't have the option to talk to somebody because things are unfolding. but i do know of police officers that were able to talk somebody out of a situation, either a hostage situation, for example. i do think that this case shows us once again, we have a young white male, 20 to 30-year-old. he, himself, admits he is mentally unstable. he is not on his medicine. and i think that we -- if we

gloss over this, because it is such a tough problem to solve, but yet it comes back that it is the root cause of a lot of these murders, thankfully, she had the composu composure. and i think god was guiding her to help make sure it turned out the way it did. but it could have easily gone the other way. >> yeah, i think what she did was amazing and everything. i am going to be a sour puss here, i don't want to rely on a brave, unarmed woman when there is a psycho and a gun, and i think there is an important variable in the mass shootings is the time it takes for a second gun to get there. i have more trust in somebody blowing that guy away. than a brave woman. how many people like that have been shot trying to talk to a crazy people. we were lucky to see this, i agree with you, we talk about the gang violence among blacks,

this is the white problem. >> you know, i heard this last night. i'm driving, listening to this. when that last part -- when the cops come in and secure the scene, and katey, the emotion pours out, i'm literally in tears listening to this. she held her composure through 32 minutes of that, and the final scene. >> an amazing example of how to keep your cool. ms. tuff is a very tuff lady, to put it that way. but i think her reaction may be helpful to the mental health communities. because what happened, i agree with greg, probably 100% of the time -- this is a very rare case where nothing happened. but in the mental health community we can treat people with more love and dignity and they can get better, in addition to the medication they have to take. >> the problem we have, it would be nice to have a well armed, trained person in every school. sure it would be, but who will

pay for it? >> i like that, bob, did you guys hear that? can i shake your hand? well-armed, well-trained person in the school. >> i would o-- >> but who is going to pay for it? >> the nra offered to do the training free. >> we can find a few billion here and there of wasteful spending and coming up with a couple of bucks. anyway, coming up, a lawsuit and a recall. but there is word that san diego's mayor has just agreed to a deal with the city over the sexual harassment fiasco, so will he step down? stay tuned and we'll find out.

fia . >> so it has been almost exactly a year after president obama

warned syria that using chemical weapons would cross a red line. there are signs that the regime just used chemical weapons again. but the obama administration has not made a decision on whether or not to pull aid. so what is the administration going to do now? and does it even matter anymore? charles krauthammer speaks about the american policy in the middle east. >> the only constant in all of this is obama as a candidate, as a senator, decided we should be out of these wars. we should be out of the middle east. he repeats it over and over again and pretends it is true. and that is the constant, we're not in iraq or syria, we're getting killed in libya. we're not doing anything. all the other actors are in play, the iranians, hezbollah, we are irrelevant. >> so that is one person's point

of view. but it is not just democrats who wanted out of the wars or let's get out of the middle east. i mean, isn't this what a lot of people have said they wanted? >> sure, charles is brilliant but wrong. obama has not made us irrelevant in the middle east, he made us irrelevant around the world. we're not relevant in russia or china. look, he has screwed up the foreign policy. i am not even sure what his foreign pocy is, we draw a red line for syria that they cross twice. >> do you know what your foreign policy is? what is your alternative foreign policy? >> in what respect -- >> i listen to krauthammer, who granted is a smart guy. he understands his role very well, but is not an expert on the middle east. >> pull the funding. >> here you got the conservatives, some

conservatives and liberals staying very quiet about this. and not be willing to stand up with obama on this. nobody wants to take that money away from the generals, because they did the one thing that y'all wanted, which was get rid of the brotherhood. and that is why mubarak is out of jail, because those were his people. >> we put the muslim brotherhood -- >> we put them in power? >> yeah, we did, we funded them. we didn't want mubarak, so we funded -- >> the arab spring, there were a lot of different quarters. i do agree that some people have come back around and said now looking back, hindsight is 20/20, we should have just kept mubarak. on the syrian portion of this, the united nations is there. right? they were actually there last april, when supposedly assad who is the dictator there used chemical weapons against its own people. now the u.n. is supposedly going to go back to see if the second report confirmed by the french

is accurate. do you find it is just hard to figure out how to even -- if you wanted to support president obama, how would you even support him, because you don't know what the policy is? >> right, he draws a red line in syria, doesn't follow up, he doesn't want to call a coup, a coup. even though he supported the muslim brotherhood. it is very difficult to figure out what he wants. and as you pointed out, you know, our new ambassador to the u.n., ms. power, doesn't even show up to the meeting about the syrian crisis -- >> obama put hosni mubarak out of power, and put o-- >> god you don't know about foreign policy. >> why don't you teach me? since you know all about foreign policy, why is it that the obama administration is supporting the muslim brotherhood, which is a

terrorist organization -- >> they are not supporting the muslim brotherhood -- >> it is a terrorist organization. and then they fund them -- let me get greg in here, so what do you want to talk about? anything, how was your vacation? how is your mom. >> i want to talk to my mom on one more thing. you know, middle east peace is the unicorn on foreign policy, everybody thinks they will see it but you never see it. until the day you die, it is like you're marrying into a family with the crazy grandmother in the attic. you got to really love the job, to put up with the crazy granny, as i like to call it. is the middle east, hopefully the two drunks fighting will get tired and run out of steam, that is all i got. >> one more thing, go ahead, bob. >> no, you go ahead.

>> when obama made egypt as the gateway to muslim relations in the beginning of his first term, when that was such a big policy on that then, and for us not knowing what his policy is, is a problem. >> egypt has always been the gateway, it is why israel is secure today because we worked out a peace agreement. they got diplomatic relations and took a one-sided war -- >> which side are we on right now? what side is the obama administration on. >> i'll show you what side, do you have any idea how many sides there are? >> i'm trying to figure out -- is it the people we helped gain power there or is it the rebels who want the muslim brotherhood? >> my guess is what they're quietly doing o-- >> that is the problem, you're guessing, no one knows. >> oh, i see, they should tell you. >> i think we should be for america's side. that america does have national interest in the middle east, including egypt, and they're in a tough place, willing to support them but they got to

give me a reason to. >> how about those pyramids? >> oh, i saw them from the airlines -- hannah anderson speaks publicly for the first time since her kidnapping, and reveals new details. stay tuned for that. =yedudtdyj

well, less than two weeks after her dramatic rescue, hannah anderson is breaking her silence and expressing gratitude to those who rescued her from her abductor, james dimaggio. >> i want to say thank you, in the beginning i was a victim, but now, knowing everybody out

there was helping me i consider myself a survivor instead. >> now, she is pushing back at critics who have questioned her relationship with her kidnapper, though. >> in the letters, where from like a year ago when me and my mom were not getting along very well. me and my mom ta-- he talked me through it, and the letters, they were not anything bad, just to help me through tough times. >> sadly, the 16-year-old is preparing to bury her mother and brother this weekend. now, this case gets stranger. she did this interview on "the today show." talking about why there was this contact between her and her abductor, because it seemed strange that there were phone calls and text messages, the fbi stresses she was a victim.

but she was on social media hours afterwards talking about the case, which was very strange. >> that was -- not so much this interview with "the today show." but literally right after she was rescued she was on social media. people asked her about the kidnapping, they asked, well, did he have sex with you? she talked about everything she could talk about. her mother and brother were killed. when something doesn't sit right, it is just not sitting right with this girl. i am not -- i'm wondering, you know, the family of james dimaggio wants a paternity test to find out if in fact, james dimaggio was her father. >> but the family pushed back on that, too, saying her mother was pregnant with her well before they even met dimaggio, like six months before. i thought the interview was very good. she is quite composed. i also think on the social media

part, older people, i don't think we can understand it. i think the younger people, it is so much ingrained in their lives, how much they talk with it. that it doesn't make sense to us, for either news gathering or to make fun of their co-hosts. i don't think it is strange, not in her mind. >> in her mind? where is her attorney in this situation -- >> can you imagine a couple of hours after watching your family burn in a building after being murdered, being able to talk about it? >> greg, you have lots of sisters. >> so true. >> you have seen them interact with many different kinds of men. >> that is so true. what this story says to me is that young girls misunderstand the interests and cues of older men. you have to understand that a grown man is never interested in your mind. watch the film "cape fear" max

catey was a psychopath. she couldn't see he was -- all she could see was the interest in his feelings. she had no interest in him, but he was listening to her problems, taking an interest, something that her mom and dad didn't do. young women have to understand that when a much older man is taking an interest in you, it is not because he thinks you're smart and cool. >> i'm going to weigh in as an expert witness here, this is the first time i really listened to this thing carefully. i frankly didn't follow it much. but doesn't it seem a little strange that this woman would be a victim of somebody she invited into her life? >> no, i think in reading it, a family friend, you say hey, can you pick up so and so from cheerleader practice? he was treated as an uncle, basically. so the investigation will continue, i'm sure. but we got to go to the break now. so two pint-sized daredevils

soar into the sky on a wing and a prayer. their death-defying stunt, coming up. coming up. don't go away. could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. yep, everybody knows that. well, did you know some owls aren't that wise? don't forget i'm having brunch with meghan tomorrow. who? meghan, my coworker. who? seriously? you've met her like three times. who? (sighs) geico. fifteen minutes could save you...well, you know.

. these girls, check out this amazing video of 9-year-old cousins named flame brewer and rose pal, they became the youngest wing-walking formation team. so why in the world would they do this? >> we wanted to raise awareness for the charity, which raises money for a disease called muscular dystrophy. >> would they ever do it again? here is what they say. >> i am really glad i did it, i probably would not do it for charity, i would probably do something else for charity. >> okay, greg, would you wing walk for charity? >> you know, i know when

somebody says they're doing something for charity, you're supposed to say, aren't they adorable? isn't that cute? i think that is child abuse, putting a child on top of a plane, is child abuse. a woman died, a veteran stunt woman, died a horrible death. she was a mother of kids. raise charity, there are a million ways to do it. i find it creepy. >> i think it is awesome. >> does anybody think it is not a little strange? >> i think it is great, i think it looks like fun and the parents asked if they wanted to do it. >> maybe i could do it for charity, ask hey, you want to smoke a pack of cigarettes for charity? >> what do you think? do you think it is legitimate? >> i think life is precious and being a daredevil at 9 years old and putting your children up to doing this is a little much for charity. >> what do you think?

>> i would like to move on to the next topic. >> this is not like patchwork, you can't say pass. >> an airline in singapore decided to have a child-free zone where children 12 and under are not allowed to sit in this particular area of the plane. now, i for one find that to be a refreshing idea. and i wish every airline would adopt that idea. let me leave it up to my colleagues, is it outrageous? what do you think. if you put all the 12-year-olds on top of and under, and strap them in, that would be fine. >> is there a section for old former democratic strategists that -- >> it is called first class. >> why is it -- why did you have to take that moment to get into that? >> look, is there something -- did i -- >> you would really pay to have no kids -- >> definitely.

>> i would pay a lot. >> that is evil. >> this is not on a plane, but i took my mom to the natural history museum, i took her to the imax penguin show, and there were so many children there, i would have paid more to go to the no-kid imax -- >> i don't like kids, but they got to go -- you can't deny families. >> but i should be able to pay more to not have to see them. >> i think it is fine. i was on a plane once and somebody was holding their dog in their seat across the country right next to me, and it was sneezing on me. we went to atlanta and the woman behind me had the little bakersfield, and you were in first class and i was not? >> yes -- >> anyway, i want to say this, because -- katey, it is nice to have you here.

test test

. all right, time for one more thing, i was gone for the last four or five days, saying hello to my dear home, jackie, there she is, at a restaurant having something to eat. she is looking pretty good. way back, she can't see you, though. she is doing well. >> she looks good. >> she does look good, she

inherited my looks -- all right. >> one more thing we would like to bring in, things that we would have liked to have gotten in. the prosecution and defense both closed their final arguments, major arguments in the major nidal hasan. remember, he could be the first major death penalty in i believe, many, many decades. i don't have the actual number. so we expect that any day. that would go to another phase -- >> what do they do with those courtroom drawings? can you buy those? that would be kind of cool to have on the wall. >> anyway. >> well, for a totally different subject, because the dear producer, josh is back, he chose this, kind of when you need a laugh, late night. you have to look at new zealand, which is a kiwi, he is named john owen and held a political

rally. and it was for sheep. take a look. >> what do you want? baaaaa. >> when do you want it? baaaaaaa. >> how do you want it? baaaaaa. >> who is your daddy! baaaa. >> what about your mom? baaaa. >> it is like terrible joke night. >> should have asked them if they got fox business? demand it. >> where am i? >> me, so after 18 women, a grandmother and women sexually assaulted in the military came forward, bob filner, the mayor of san diego, has reportedly struck a deal to resign his position. he has been negotiating a graceful exit from the city

after threats of a recall campaign. and apparently, the city council will vote tomorrow, which is friday, on the conditions of that deal. and he will hopefully be gone after decades of harassing women. >> i can't imagine if you're that dude making a graceful exit. >> katey, was he a democrat or a republican? >> oh, i think he was a republican -- just kidding. a democrat. nancy pelosi's friend. >> eliot spitzer, weiner, filner, clinton -- >> i would be very careful if i were you, my boy. very careful. the bowman brothers, they were both republican congressmen, we wouldn't get into that. what i'm going to do, the center for disease control, i've been waiting for and recovering alcoholics have been. and that is the cost of heavy drinking to the country, the health establishment. and the figure, which we thought

would be about $100 billion, turns out to be $223.5 billion every year, health-related to alcohol costs and drinking. if you want to start to look at how we deal with the health care problems in the country, that is one place to look. because it is a staggering amount of money. and that is not to mention the loss -- people losing work -- >> productivity -- >> this is just health. the cost of going to get your liver fixed up, if you can. i mean, it is all related to health. that is what the total is. we were wait follow this thing, $223 billion? >> but i bet you it is still not the amount of money that alcohol brings into this country. >> that is probably true. i mean, you're not going to do away with it. but i think more alcohol awareness, particularly as we head back to school, young folks out there. okay, that is what i got. >> bob. >> what about the marijuana